tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2719459558369549533.post4599749420727580022..comments2023-07-28T11:57:04.354+01:00Comments on Malc in the Burgh: Where next for nationalism?Malchttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18191161151984519900noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2719459558369549533.post-8560354249247474212009-03-13T21:47:00.000+00:002009-03-13T21:47:00.000+00:00I would like to point that although it could be tr...I would like to point that although it could be true that the electoral system limits the opportunities of nationalists parties in the Basque Country (the banning of D3M is a complex issue; but an issue of some sort, after all), we must not forget that the electoral system of Spain as a whole is designed in such a way that supports nationalists parties. You just have to see that right now the Basque Nationalist Party (PNV), with only 306.108 votes holds 6 seats in the Spanish Congress of Deputies; while the Spanish United Left party, with 969.871 votes holds only 2 seats.<BR/>In fact, it has been argued that this very system has encouraged nationalism in certain regions with a high vote/seats conversion rate.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2719459558369549533.post-59184603116565945462009-03-10T14:12:00.000+00:002009-03-10T14:12:00.000+00:00Sorry Sam, I should really have read over my comme...Sorry Sam, I should really have read over my comment before I made it. Should have read:<BR/><BR/>"Arguably, the SNP is NOT a "single issue party"; not so much diversification of policies but an overarching framework for their policies to exist within." Nationalism provides the framework, but they still have to govern. Missing out the "not" changed the whole meaning of what I was trying to say!<BR/><BR/>I wasn't "ignoring the fact" that the <B>Spanish Constitutional Court</B> (not the Govt) banned D3M from standing. Which yes, was a politically motivated decision but, in the long-run (ie, to combat terrorism) might have been wise-ish. The Basque situation is sufficiently different from NI with Sinn Fein/ IRA that letting them stand is not that clear cut.<BR/><BR/>But yes - both the arguments that you & Anon make point to the same thing: the system. Both in Scotland & the Basque Country, the electoral system is designed to limit the opportunities for nationalists to have power and to wield power. And both the SNP & PNV have had to prove their merit as governing parties in the same way that other governments have. But they don't make the rules, so its a difficult game for them to win.Malchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18191161151984519900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2719459558369549533.post-40896684040091262662009-03-10T13:43:00.000+00:002009-03-10T13:43:00.000+00:00Those voting figures rather support my point; that...Those voting figures rather support my point; that a party can only do so much from within the system that empowers it.<BR/><BR/>And by saying D3M should not be on the ballot <I>"if they were not going to be accepted as a legitimate party"</I> you're ignoring the fact that it was the Spanish Government (obviously opposed to Basque nationalism) that decided to ban the two parties for alleged links to ETA, a politically motivated decision if ever there was one.<BR/><BR/>Malc, I think we discussed the idea of SNP as a single-issue party before (and obviously I accept you know more than I do). So I probably said this before, but I really don't see how the SNP can be considered single-issue. Its making legislative & executive decisions in response to the challenges of being in power, which every party would have to take in the same situation. It may well be attempting to create a favourable situation for independence, but as you have said that is not going to be for a long time, a time in which the SNP will have to fight Assembly elections. Winning those is clearly the priority, as it is for every government.<BR/><BR/>And the SNP (& probably most nationalist parties in power) knows that it depends on Westminster to grant independence. It would be impossible to govern on such a narrow basis while waiting for that to happen, if it ever does.<BR/><BR/>I think there is a big difference between being a single issue party, and having to present coherent policies to a broad electorate and govern on them. Its the latter situation which almost inevitably leads to what I called co-option earlier. As you said, those policies are then what the party is judged on.Samhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09276807629755008090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2719459558369549533.post-36439858537372554152009-03-10T11:05:00.000+00:002009-03-10T11:05:00.000+00:00That is a fair point Anon.But Lopez makes a decent...That is a fair point Anon.<BR/><BR/>But Lopez makes a decent point on his blog - that the PNV run local authorities in Guipuzcoa and Alava as the second and third largest parties in each respectively and you don't hear talk from them there about the unfairness of the system.<BR/><BR/>I don't think D3M should have been on the ballot if they were not going to be accepted as a legitimate party. Despite that, it is clear from those votes that there is much more in the way of nationalist sentiment in the Basque Country than the "official" result would suggest.<BR/><BR/>However, you can only work with the system that you have. And in terms of seats and <I>collective</I> votes, the PSE and PP's power is significantly more than the PNV potential coalition. <BR/><BR/>But yes, I guess what you would say is that they won the battle (votes and seats) but lost the war (government status).Malchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18191161151984519900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2719459558369549533.post-60854300107894594562009-03-10T09:54:00.000+00:002009-03-10T09:54:00.000+00:00Hello:I think it would be interesting to analyse t...Hello:<BR/><BR/>I think it would be interesting to analyse the total amounts of votes.<BR/><BR/>Nationalist parties:<BR/><BR/>EAJ: 396.557<BR/>EA: 37.820<BR/>Aralar:62.214<BR/>D3M (ilegalized party): 101.000<BR/>Total amount: +-600.000 votes<BR/><BR/>Spanish nationalist parties: <BR/>PSE: 315.893<BR/>PP: 144.944<BR/>Total amount: +-460.000<BR/><BR/>EB (left party) it has been in the basque government for the last 8 years: 36.134. They are basque federalist, not basque nationalist nor spanish nationalist.<BR/><BR/>As you can see, there is somenthing wrong in this system. Even the basque nationalist are at least 120.000 votes over the spanish nationalist, these last ones have the majority in the parlament. Even without the votes from the ilegalized party, there are more people who voted basque nationalist.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2719459558369549533.post-76458456755073996982009-03-09T22:16:00.000+00:002009-03-09T22:16:00.000+00:00Sam,There are several issues, the Spanish Constitu...Sam,<BR/><BR/>There are several issues, the Spanish Constitutional Court's decision is one of them.<BR/><BR/>I don't think the co-option is such an issue in itself. Arguably, the SNP is a "single issue party"; not so much diversification of policies but an overarching framework for their policies to exist within.<BR/><BR/>I think your second point is valid. It probably has more to do with fatigue of the PNV as a party of government - and, don't let us forget, they have succeeded in gaining, as you say, huge autonomy for the region.<BR/><BR/>My argument doesn't make the case that the PNV are a "failure" because they have not achieved their constitutional goal. Rather, I'd make the case that, while they have succeeded hugely in proving that nationalist parties can govern effectively and obtain much more in the way of autonomy for their region, they have not <I> yet</I> succeeded in achieving their primary goal.<BR/><BR/>I reckon that's not the clearest way of making that point, but I think you know what I mean.Malchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18191161151984519900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2719459558369549533.post-79751998988608054962009-03-09T21:12:00.000+00:002009-03-09T21:12:00.000+00:00One major factor in the PNV being unable to achiev...One major factor in the PNV being unable to achieve its constitutional goal was the <A HREF="http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2009/01/02/europe/EU-Spain-Basque-Elections.php" REL="nofollow">Spanish Supreme Court decision</A> to rule unconstitutional Ibarretxe's planned referendum on further moves towards independence. <BR/><BR/>I get the feeling there was more to it than that alone, but that would understandably have undermined confidence in his party's abilities to deliver.<BR/><BR/>But isn't that part of the problem? Political decisions forced upon a less powerful actor within a political system which allows the actor what power it has. In other words, nationalist parties get co-opted by the system. <BR/><BR/>But in electoral terms, that co-option, or diversifying of policies, is surely what gives the party its broader appeal. If the SNP was a single issue party would it really have got into power?<BR/><BR/>I suspect the upset in the Basque Country (which don't forget saw the PNV remain as the <I>largest single party</I>) had as much to do with voters tiring of a party which had been in power for 29 years, not least because of it's success. Spain has gradually ceded control over many legislative functions to its Autonomous Communities. Maybe voters saw the party as having done as much as it could for the time being.<BR/><BR/>The Basque region is one of the wealthiest in Spain and has a per capita GDP well above the EU average, as well as having more autonomy than almost any other region in Europe.<BR/><BR/>If the SNP could achieve that for Scotland would it not be considered a success? It could be argued that those kind of economic conditions are a prerequisite for independence for a small nation with a long-time dependence on its larger state.Samhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09276807629755008090noreply@blogger.com